Evo kako nieki, koji se time malo vishe bave, razmishljaju o ovoj "nashoj" haploskupini:
From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <
knordtvedt@bresnan.net>
Subject: [yDNAhgI] The Younger Dryas Nine
Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 12:55:55 -0600
Straddling 12,000 years B.P., Europe and nearby regions experienced a prolonged cold period of over a thousand years duration --- the Younger Dryas. It was probably the most recent severe demographic setback our ancestors around Europe experienced. Although y haplogroup I (y-Hg I) was by then a mature-in-age haplogroup, being perhaps 10,000 years old already, I conclude from collecting and examining between five and ten thousand haplotypes of y-Hg I today that only nine males emerged from Younger Dryas with surviving male-line descendants today. These Younger Dryas Nine now have tens of millions of male descendants in Europe and elsewhere on the globe where Europeans have settled in recent centuries.
These nine Hg I males were ancestors, indeed very ancient ancestors, of various European* haplogroup TMRCAs (founders) with present population names:
I1
I2*
I2a*
I2a1
I2a2a
I2a2b
I2a3
I2b1
I2b2
Note: There are no known haplotypes today of haplogroups I* and I2b*; this is an artifact to some degree of the accidental order of y-SNP discoveries and the haplogroup naming rules --- today's inventory of known y-SNPs being just a drop in the bucket compared to all existing y-SNPs in the phylogenetic tree. The tree, drawn to time scale, without the names on it, more closely represents the nature of our phylogenetic knowledge today.
12,000 B.P. each of these nine males were not alone; each was living in a surrounding hunter-gatherer male population of immediate family, extended family, clan, tribe, etc. Some of these neighboring males carried y haplotypes very close to one of the nine and descended from common ancestors not too much further back in time. These clades of haplotypes surrounding each of the nine could be counted in the tens, hundreds, maybe even thousands of contemporaries.
But due to very high extinction probabilities for these male lines, exceeding 99 percent, these nine lucky ones emerged as sole representatives of their clades having surviving lines today. Many y-clades no doubt went completely extinct in that era.
In the coming weeks I will construct a somewhat speculative narrative of where these nine males may have been living 12,000 B.P., but will then tie them to their known descendant clades of today which ended with distinct geographical distributions in Europe.
* I2* also has a decent population today in eastern Anatolia and on into the Caucasus. This is the only clade or sub-haplogroup of Hg I with a likely outside-of-Europe indigenous population.
Ken
***
From: Familienarchiv Fritsche + Saldarriaga<
familienarchiv@genealogie-fritsche.de>
Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] The Younger Dryas Nine
Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 01:20:27 +0200
Hello Ken,
Thanks so much for this interesting explanation.
Yes, the Younger Dryas is considered the time between 10,750 and 9,610
BCE. It was the end of the Hamburg culture and its duration is the time
of the Ahrensburg culture of already bow-hunting reindeer hunters in
northwestern Europe. The climate was cooling-down very sharply, nearly
immediately within only one decade, followed by a re-glaciation in
northern Europe, but much of northern Europe remained inhabitated.
To the haplogroup I1 / I2 ratio: At the moment, there seems to exist
only one I1 haplogroup, in contrast to eight I2... haplo- and subgroups.
Is there a reason why?
IMO possible reasons could have been that during several Indoeuropean
invasions I1 people could have been killed by the invaders or those IE
invaders suppressed I1 males over generations and kept them away rather
successfully from reproduction.
One question re: your recent update on "Estimated TMRCAs for Y
Haplogroup I Clades": Do these times mean years BP or years BCE?
Best regards.
Jürgen
***
From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <
knordtvedt@bresnan.net>
Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] The Younger Dryas Nine
Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 12:26:19 -0600
To the haplogroup I1 / I2 ratio: At the moment, there seems to exist
only one I1 haplogroup, in contrast to eight I2... haplo- and subgroups.
Is there a reason why?
[[ Don't discount sheer luck (concerning a number of inputs to this) and the
large statistical flucuations for "a few examples" of something.
In the end I think "what happened" will be a complicated result of luck
factors and more what we call causal factors. Sorting that out is one of
the fun things of this hobby.
Academic papers engage in an excess of speculative orgies to make everything
seem like they have a handle on causal factors.
Then there is the possibility that the son of I* who began the branchline to
I1 found his descendant line go to less hospital regions where extinction
probabilities were a bit higher.
We are looking at a species at the razor edge of overall extinction in
Europe until the last several millenia --- at least that's my perspective
right now. Ken ]]
****
From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <
knordtvedt@bresnan.net>
Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] The Younger Dryas Nine
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 08:08:45 -0600
I just put some work into P78+ haplogroup last night. There is a cluster of
ordinary I2b1* Continental which really requires all 67 markers to separate
it from P78+ I2b1c, so I had to clean up my database. Of course, more folks
doing the P78 test for these confusing haplotypes would help a lot.
Unfortunately, FTDNA has embedded P78 into an expensive package rather than
selling it as a stand-alone snp, so snp testing for P78 lags.
Anyway, P78+ is an older haplogroup back to its MRCA --- about 5000 years.
And it seems to have a geographically more spread out population base
somewhat to the southeast from basic I2b1* Continental.
***
Bash me zanima njegova teorija, koju najavljuje, o tome gdi je koja od ovih grupa zsivila!
